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Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
575
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Posted - 2015.09.15 15:48:01 -
[1] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:SuperM8 wrote:1.2+bil today... will it ever stop rising? Probably not and there is nothing wrong with that.
I have been tempted to buy a plex and sell it to market actually.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
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Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
575
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Posted - 2015.09.15 17:10:25 -
[2] - Quote
Bagrat Skalski wrote: What holds you?
You need that ISK right? Or maybe ISK not really equals fun?
Or maybe making that ISK yourself would feel like fun? What is your goal?
I never sold even one PLEX on market, I bought a lot of them.
Ever thought about situation when you can make enough ISK in one day to buy yourself a PLEX the same day? What really counts for you then? I had do ask myself that question many times.
Is a simple balance of roleplay, isk and time. I roleplay and dont farm so my play has a decent balance of isk earnings to shinies. The previous plex prices was not enough dollar to fun, but above a bil is an easy buffer for a solo account player. For many it may not seem like much, and I could farm it easy. However, that is lack of fun that could be spent on fun. 20 bucks is worth the savings vs 1 bil of farm or market/industry fiddling.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
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Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
576
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Posted - 2015.09.15 18:05:28 -
[3] - Quote
Mir Jana wrote:1.2b isk...
ffs.... WoT dont charge anything.... LoL dont charge anything... Neverwinter dont charge anything... ffs, chesscube dont charge anything...
why do I have to spend 3 hours daily to rat to be able to pvp on weekends... ?!?!
wtf....?!?!
Or spend 13 dollars... less than cost of a movie?
Those other ones are simple arena style combat. Compare their server requirements and overhead to what CCP runs? Hell, my sub doesn't even cover my power bill?
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
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Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
576
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Posted - 2015.09.15 18:51:14 -
[4] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Blah blah blah.
Its simple fact, that the higher PLEX costs go, the lower player activity will be.
No matter what side or angle of the argument you are on, you are going to have to deal with that simple systemic fact.
Then we must look at what the end player base will be and goals of CCP. If the quality of play improves, then people who want a quality and in depth MMO will make up the player base. I will use my movie cost for an example.
I can get a movie a few ways....
1. See it in Theater on release 2. Get a Theatre pirated and downloaded 3. Wait for it to come out for sale 4. Legal streaming 5. Pirate of commercial available
Lets start from from general experience. I can watch on my monitor, or TV on home system. But for a good movie, I really might want to see it on the IMAX in 3D. That is worth the few bucks. Fury Road is a fine example. It had to be experienced on the big screen.
In the end, it comes down to profit. A big screen spectacle costs big money to make vs a made for stream movie. So if they swap eve to be a "F2P" model where it is expected that you can use plex to pay for all subs, supply and demand. Many players are happy with a sub and selling plex occasionally. Like all things, is a balance. I wouldn't pay 20 bucks for a destructible battleship hull. So where is the plex from? Abuse of the buddy system, and a small number of non entitled sub payers.
If a person wants FTP, then best be expecting made for TV. Eve play relegated to massive 20v20 player battles in arena. Want a blockbuster? Best pay.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
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Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
576
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 19:20:38 -
[5] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:I'll say it again: CCP need to work out where on the Laffer Curve PLEX stand at the moment. Because if there are two revenue equilibira, with one having a much higher number of PLEX being consumed, then CCP unquestionably and obviously need to choose the higher.
Oooh.... Intellectual sharing. I like. Something we know in concept, but never had a name to the concept. It could work, is there a lower sub and plex price that would result in more earnings? I think their costs are pretty spot on for service rendered. More repolishing will just improve that. If the world is going to instant gratification at no cost, then would be best for eve to fade and CCP to just make some arena space game.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
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Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
576
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 20:27:15 -
[6] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote: Why is there no EVE II in development?
If we loom at every f and i post, that is what most people are asking for. Funny thing is eve is just mathematics behind scenes. I describe it to people as dots fighting dots on the server and our comuter gives us fancy graphics and the appearance of ship orientation.
To this day, legacy code is an issue, but is there even any way we can optimize basic trig? That is all the server does. So an effective eve two would just be to just scrap the fleshed out mechanics and rewrite.
I still think biggest issue is just lack of depth to content. The LP store is pure industry. No isk added, just trade of a resource. If we take that and expand pirate life combined with a review of basic combat to see if we can remove or break up tje rock/papar/scissors, we would have eve II. Instead of fix the core, we do stuff like entosis. The jump changes were a good example of a core change. New AI is a core change. What changes the game for the most people to make it more engaging?
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
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Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
576
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 20:45:39 -
[7] - Quote
Here is the scary part. If eve went under, does CCP have any legal obligation to a PLEX? Essentially it is an in game item that can be redeemed for game time... But... It can also be redeemed for aurum. Large stockpiles of plex could then just go... Poof!!! Too bad, so sad or eve just reduced back to a few hundred peeps node max and have fun. Proper business would split sub and plex finance. Subs to maintenance and overhead. Plex to r and i. Every redeemed plex transfers to maint. As such, if all of eve plex stockpile went to current accounts, that maintenance is forecasted until that last sub runs out. Close doors in the black.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
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Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
576
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 22:16:48 -
[8] - Quote
If CCP became worried about plex stockpiling, an easy solution if they deemed necessary is to just stop sales.
However if I was CCP, I would have legal evidence that it is an ingame asset which has since been redeemed. If somebody spent all that isk to get 1000 plex, well they might very well have something never to get used. Let em control the market. CCP happy. Higher price means plex sellers more liable to control plex. Plex not redeemed means nil to CCP. It would to me...
If it starts flooding market, rate of consumption will not change unless they are flooded for an ungodly low price. In which case those players took a loss.
Plex is pretty close to a real world commodity. However is a dangerous game. If eve stops operating, then value is a pure zero.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
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Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
576
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 00:24:48 -
[9] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
I think of bubbles as the situation where the actual practical value of a commodity is detached from its speculative investment value.
An example of this is our local real estate market where many apartments are empty because the rents are beyond what people are prepared to pay. When I asked a real estate friend about this his reply was "if you drop the rent its value as a speculative investment plummets, you are fair better off keeping the rent up and leaving it vacant".
That is interesting. A very close friend of mine, him and his family own a major downtown apartment block. In addition, their rent in this extremely well maintained building has a vacancy of never and long term residence. Their reasoning?
Well, they could charge more, but why? Just to make more money? Their operational costs have not increased and when there is a rent increase, is explained and they maintain all their renters. Result is their overhead costs are minimal and income perfectly stable. The tenants wanting to stay in the building look after it. The waiting list, people wait literally years for if a room opens up.
100% of 80% market is better than 0% of 100%. The market forecasting for stuff like that is all luckers. Gotta make money and get out, somebody always loses. That hurts the whole economy. People wonder why it is crap? It is concern over a quick buck instead of long term stability.
Example of false value increase. My property since buying has increased 4 fold in value to total investment, but only cause people want it to flip/rent at overcharged cost. My actual costs have increased absolutely none.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
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Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
577
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 13:56:11 -
[10] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Mir Jana wrote:1 account Eve = 1 account in WoT + 1 account in LoL + 1 account in (random game name) = more fun then EVE at these plex prices... If PLEX prices are impacting your 'fun' that just means your way of thinking is the problem, not the price of PLEX. This is a very good example of what another poster said here, PLEX fooled ignorant people into thinking the game was 'free'. Notice how the above poster lists nothing but free to play games in his comparison to EVE.
LoL, I spent more in that per month than eve.... Proper FTP, a fun game, well made, I will spend money in bling.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
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Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
579
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 18:39:03 -
[11] - Quote
La Rynx wrote:EvE is NOT expensive.
EvE is more a hobby than a game. In my book games are supposed to be more fun, then EvE is. And comparing to hobbies like RC-Helikopters or Planes, Fishing, Snowboarding, surfing EvE does not cost lots of money.
My CONTROLLER for RC plane = two years of eve sub. I don't even want to think the cost per hour of usage comparison. Toss in vintage motorcycles into the mix.... insanity. If these people who think 15 bucks a month is too much, try insuring a large displacement sport bike.....
Blade Darth wrote:It's getting pretty ridiculous... Can't even plex my main account, CTA's, hostiles in local, fleets etc. take lots of game time and doing this+ grinding 1b+ isk is too much.
And that is the issue. Farming etc has resulted in an expectation for rate of earning. It isn't fun because people expect too much simply because some broken forms of income result in high yields. Drives up operational costs, more time spent less fun or lack of time is lack of funds to match the meta.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
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Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
579
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 20:28:19 -
[12] - Quote
Bagrat Skalski wrote:This game needs more lazy wealthy people.
But how a lazy person can be welthy? Isn't that oxymoron?
Not really. It is feeding off the greed of others, or having others do the work for you and taking a cut.
In eve, it is things that get you stuff you can get for isk with minimal effort. Is an issue, high earning is because it is consistent and predictable, aka broken.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
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Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
580
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Posted - 2015.09.17 15:56:37 -
[13] - Quote
Boom Laison wrote:Gillia Winddancer wrote:
Nothing is free. That is all.
Dark orbit, world of tanks, war thunder etc and etc... There ARE a free to play PvP games. The sooner CCP will realise it does has serios concurence on the market, the better the game will be. You want to fly alone in almost empty high sec? Spend hours looking for fight in low or null? Keep this "pay or GTFO" attitude. Less targets = less hunters, even paying players will start to leave.
Those aren't free. It is same way making stuff from mined minerals is not free. Pay is other ways. Development must be paid for. They are not some open source.org. The makers want money through ads and/or players who spend money on stuff to make some coin. Their support and overhead is extremely lower than what it costs to operate and maintain a large system like eve. I guess CCP could put in a server pop cap?
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
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Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
580
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 18:24:32 -
[14] - Quote
Cancel Align NOW wrote:Feeding 2 plex a day to the market in Jita when prices are over 2bil will make me feel like Immortan Joe. Long may the market favour those who are already rich.
That is assuming it does. If eve makes improvements and expands the new player base, jist a matter of time til it caps or lowers. Guess depends on how many a person has and when bought.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
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Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
589
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Posted - 2015.09.18 20:46:26 -
[15] - Quote
Tank Murdock Jnr wrote:Odie McCracken wrote:So what page will this thread be on when it gets to 1.5Bil? My guess is 25. Well, I'm reliably informed that lots of old rich players are leaving with the intention of ruining it for everyone. So, page 22.
When the garbage is cleaned up, does it not get better?
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
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Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
589
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Posted - 2015.09.18 21:01:09 -
[16] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
No, the lights get turned off.
That is only if new players dont come in their place. Let the old vets leave. Those of us with a more community game mentality will build a better gameplay environment that is actually inclusive... If CCP is in this for the future still.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
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Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
602
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Posted - 2015.09.21 23:56:28 -
[17] - Quote
That is what I got on about lots. Isk should be cyclical. It isnt small ships, but large losses to make a gain should be a norm so over time, if a warmonger, your wins can come at a cost which over time can fall apart, like the empires of old. The isk in system will stay there unless a player goes. Plexes should be just a side benefit to skilled play, not an expectation of play. If we fix play, plex prices will find a nice medium determined by the value sellers put on isk to dollars.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
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Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
610
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Posted - 2015.09.22 21:45:33 -
[18] - Quote
Boom Laison wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:remove killmails.
People = more willing to take risks. More risks and more expensive ships being used = greater isk faucet. You do realise killmails is the only thing, that measures e-pen of most active Eve players?
Support your statement of Killmails.
What is needed is to put more value into losses so to speak. Make it so fighting during a potential loss isn't just a "TPK" The best way to do it is to make a 100% efficiency impossible if you are facing any competition. If combat skill had as much value as bling, that would remove press F1 combat. this means that a skilled fleet could be total loss but still cost the enemy more. It would also remove unpredictability and encourage skilled players to take more losses if they have a chance to win outnumbered.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
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Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
614
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Posted - 2015.09.23 22:25:28 -
[19] - Quote
Aaron wrote:[quote=Tippia]
Game time = Needed to play the game Skins = Vanity for people who want to show off and look cool
Please explain why one has to pay vanity cost when that isn't what they're interested in?
Is this how you would operate a RL business?
If this was the case, costs would still be the same. Why? Cause of a simple thing. People put a quantity of isk onto an item. If no items were at that players minimum, they would not sell one. So lets say that 1b is that magic number of supply and demand. If plex is the highest, nobody will sell vanity ones until vanity reached that one bil, etc. If vanity was higher, people would stop selling plex.
Splitting them up will not change the market at all because the supplies will be split. Fewer plexes being bought, but once the prices level out for isk per dollar, it will end up just being the same place.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
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Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
616
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Posted - 2015.09.23 23:48:55 -
[20] - Quote
To hopefully break up Aaron and Tippi's spat (They do converse just like a married couple) It is interesting how plex prices work. It is pretty fantastic economics. Commodity trading. Isk to plex, and plex back to isk or consumed for a use. People buy plex with the commodity they receive from real world work to get plex. Said isk then has a value to real world work. I just find it fastinating. Person works, they mentally value their time to isk, compare it with said tokens they get for work and thus convert it to plex. People then invest same work directly into eve for isk to get plex. They now have put value on their time.
Result is a proportional trade of real world man hours. Kind of interesting the comparison. Plex seller is willing to give up some of the working time in exhange for more recreational time. Buyers place a value on their rec time compared to their working time. Would be interesting to calculate current exchange of working time to recreational time of buyers to sellers and the value they place on their time.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
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Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
627
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Posted - 2015.09.25 00:36:44 -
[21] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Markus Reese wrote:To hopefully break up Aaron and Tippi's spat (They do converse just like a married couple) It is interesting how plex prices work. It is pretty fantastic economics. Commodity trading. Isk to plex, and plex back to isk or consumed for a use. People buy plex with the commodity they receive from real world work to get plex.
[snip] No, people who buy PLEX buy it with fiat currency not commodities.
Time is the commodity. I am selling my time for X dollars. A plex is worth 20 dollars which translates into a quantity of my time spent. As my earnings differ from others, that makes its value different. As such, I trade my time for a specific unit of isk. People spend said time for said isk. therefore as a commodity, I trade my time for your time if you are willing to pay.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
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Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
633
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Posted - 2015.09.25 18:17:56 -
[22] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:
Time is the commodity. I am selling my time for X dollars. A plex is worth 20 dollars which translates into a quantity of my time spent. As my earnings differ from others, that makes its value different. As such, I trade my time for a specific unit of isk. People spend said time for said isk. therefore as a commodity, I trade my time for your time if you are willing to pay.
I would not say that time is a commodity more that is has value. After all you cannot sell me extra hours for a given day, week, or even my life. But an employer who would like me to spend time helping him do something that can make him even more money will be willing to pay me for some of my time/labor.
And yes, you are correct a PLEX is worth $20 (for simplicity's sake lets just round up). If you have to spend 20 hours in game grinding to buy a PLEX then your implicit wage is $1/hour. Now maybe you really, really like grinding and you'd happily pay $2/hour to do it...in which case 20 hours of grinding and buying a PLEX makes sense. If not, then pay $15/month directly and spend far, far less time grinding. [/quote]
It was a pretty loose connection to being a commodity. But it is pretty much like you say. When I put a plex up, I am essentially putting up so much time that I worked. When somebody puts up isk, that isk represents their time worked in game. I have what I think my game time is worth, so that is what I would sell plex for. Others are weighing how much work it would take to get that plex and weighing the same.
At some point, an average will be reached or price will get so high if there is enough people who even are willing the temptation to sell plex. I dunno if there is a single term to define a plex really. It is a commodity with supply and demand, but essentially it is another form of currency? Most assuredly there is some player who is into economics who could do a whole paper on PLEX in eve!
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
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Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
635
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Posted - 2015.09.25 19:55:02 -
[23] - Quote
Rising plex increases isk requirements?
Nope, my isk needs are the same as when I started playing. I understand that some people, it is tough to have spare cash, but if isk is tight now, some can afford it. So how do they? Can a person not get a cut of that? It can be harder so put more time to it. Combine eve fun with plex. Fewer shinies, but still enjoying if it isnt a hard farm?
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
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